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dtmcoupe
Posts: 19
Re: hello all new   Posted Tue May 27, 03   4:54 AM    [re: LS4_454] 

wow you sure dont know much about cars....what the hell makes you think they are rated at 315 AT THE WHEELS. what car company rates their ENGINES at the wheels....you sure look stupid to anyone who knows anything about cars....ill be sure to post this on bimmerforums and show (once again) that for the most part muscle car owners are very poorly imformed about what it takes to make a good car. about R&T being a "bible" thats not what i meant, what i said was R&T posted a time of 13.2, and its 100% possible to get better numbers. the 12.54 was in a 100% stock m coupe right down to the tires (just played with the air pressure)...got any more stupid, misinformed comments? WOW YOU SHOULD FEEL STUPID...

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dtmcoupe
Posts: 19
Re: hello all new   Posted Tue May 27, 03   5:09 AM    [re: dtmcoupe] 

http://www.evosport.com/product/perf/#pulleys heres the pulleys.....im still wondering what makes you think cars hp is rated at the wheels....show me one stock m3 thats putting down 333 at the wheels....or an m coupe thats putting down 315. hope to see you on the street, when a estoril (if you even know what that is) blue m coupe smokes you like nothing you have ever seen, thats me damn, and my m coupe is made for the track, not the strip, and its still gonna smoke your ass

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BlownGTP

Posts: 1303
Re: hello all new   Posted Tue May 27, 03   7:13 AM    [re: dtmcoupe] 

i thought your numbers seemed a little off too! and i dont think you realize that LS454 is a BMW tech. My guess is he knows a little bit more than you would ever hope to know about BMW's.


ILL BE WAITING AT THE NEXT LIGHT!

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dtmcoupe
Posts: 19
Re: hello all new   Posted Tue May 27, 03   8:10 AM    [re: BlownGTP] 

please tell me how my numbers are off.....then look at my DYNO CHARTS AND TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK. i realise hes a tech, but he seems to be very un knowledgable on m coupes, and m cars in general if he thinks they put 315 at the wheels stock!!!

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BlownGTP

Posts: 1303
Re: hello all new   Posted Tue May 27, 03   9:18 AM    [re: dtmcoupe] 

well, the 12.54 part is what threw me off. That sounds a bit off. The funny part is the link that you added. there was almost a second and a half difference from what everyone was saying. I could picture the car running a 13.5 at its best in street and factory trim. thats all ill ever belive.


ILL BE WAITING AT THE NEXT LIGHT!

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quik67firebird

Posts: 95
Re: hello all new   Posted Tue May 27, 03   9:27 AM    [re: dtmcoupe] 

Okay, this sounds like an interesting conversation here... first off ---> "show (once again) that for the most part muscle car owners are very poorly informed about what it takes to make a good car" <--- ouch. I think that is kind of ........ WRONG!!!

The horsepower numbers listed from BMW are for what the engine generates.

The numbers from the factory are 333 hp. With a 3131lbs car that puts you down the quarter in about 13.4 - 13.5. If you've made some mods to the engine and increased your torque band or horsepower then I don't see 13.3 being out of the question. As for hitting the 12.54 mark stock. I don't think so. With that amount of horsepowerand that weight, physics just won't allow it.

As for you getting into the 12's on your ride, if you're doing 13.3's now, it's not to far away. But those last few tenths can be tough.

...of course this is coming from a muscle car owner so..... lol

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dtmcoupe
Posts: 19
Re: hello all new   Posted Tue May 27, 03   11:27 AM    [re: quik67firebird] 

i dont see how somone...espically a bmw tech would think they rate the hp from the factory at the wheels. what dealership does he work at, i will be sure to keep my car far away from him!

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hooyeah

Posts: 2924
Re: hello all new   Posted Tue May 27, 03   11:53 AM    [re: dtmcoupe] 

thuis place thrives on stereotypes doesn't it?


what if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?

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Satanismycopilot
Posts: 327
Re: hello all new   Posted Tue May 27, 03   7:00 PM    [re: hooyeah] 

the one thing that i saw in those posts is that the user name that told the story of the 12.54 is different from the one that posted his dyno charts....as for Atco Raceway which is a whole 15mins from my jhouse it is known as one of the fastest raceways in the northeast. i for one being from south jersey never EVER heard of ANY M Coupe running 12.54 stock at Atco. The guy that posted that story is from Cherry hill 45mins from me. i would like to see him do that. enough said


____________________________
so far only known MN-12 chassis (cougar/tbird)ford lover on the site

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LS4_454
Posts: 726
Re: hello all new   Posted Tue May 27, 03   7:57 PM    [re: dtmcoupe] 

All cars are rated at the rear wheels, this has been going on since around the early 70's, before you were even a twinkle in your mommies eye. Engines used to be rated at the flywheel, no accessories and even header type exhaust used even when the production motor was to use standard manifolds. Most of the engines never acheived the advertised numbers once installed into the car, some numbers were down played because of insurance reasons and some of those engines were actually putting out better HP numbers, especially towards late '69 and early '70 (Cobra Jet, Hemi, etc).
Then there was some typical legislation of "cut out the bullshit" and ALL manufactures had to rate the cars at the REAR wheels. This was also a bonus since now the HP numbers were true but lower and insurance rates became better for us people with muscle cars. Your something or other blue M coupe is rated at 315 at the rear wheels, not the flywheel, not the middle of the driveshaft and not from Bubba Boys all engine Dyno Service. A couple of years ago the Mustang Cobra guys caused a recall on the Cobras because they were taking their cars to a Dyno shop and they weren't getting the advertised numbers, Ford had to come up with a new exhaust manifold to get the advertised number. And some FYI, the M5 is rated at 396HP for this very reason, it was supposed to be advertised at 400 but after the Cobra fiasco they(BMW) backed it down to 396. Every engine varies some, but sometimes someone gets "the" motor. So just think, now these engines are putting out same and better HP numbers that they were in the 60's when they used to measure them at the flywheel and now with all the emission equipment, now thats technology.
Some things to keep in mind when doing a dyno test, How many other cars were done ahead of you? If they use one with a water brake how hot was the water? What elevation(altitude) were you at? What were the weather conditions that day? Did they have the back of the car pulled down good so the rear tires didn't slip? When was the dyno last calibrated? How warm was your engine for each dyno run? Has Bubba been spitting his chew on the rollers? Did Bubba boot up the 486 before you did the run and not during?
Some of your wanna be poser buddies mentioned something about a correction factor involved with the dyno sheets. Sounds like there is mathmatical formula to convert it to a "true" number. Maybe when you get done changing your diaper and boot your Mac you can find out from the posers how to get a real number. I wouldn't work at the local dealer, they are completely screwed up and we are always fixing the cars they can't, but you should do just fine there. I hope you didn't put that post up at your site too quickly, you may not want to return.
I may be an idiot but I know what the fuck I'm talking about.

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dtmcoupe
Posts: 19
Re: hello all new   Posted Wed May 28, 03   6:24 AM    [re: LS4_454] 

if you think cars are rated at the wheels you dont know what the fuck your talking about, find me dyno charts of a stock m3/m coupe that puts 315/333 at the wheels, im willing to bet anything you cant, because its not true!!! they dyno the engines with the accesories on them, but not from the wheels, its a FLYWHEEL dyno..im glad you dont work at a dealership, because i wouldnt want you touching my car.

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LS4_454
Posts: 726
Re: hello all new   Posted Wed May 28, 03   8:18 AM    [re: dtmcoupe] 

So you really think the Cobra guys pulled their motor out of their $38,000 dollar cars just to see what kind of number the motor would produce? I see a bigger idiot in the picture here. Why dont you do some research today while you are in study hall and be somewhat productive.
I'm placing my bet that we are dealing with another one of these dreaming magazine reading 14 year olds wishing to drive a car someday. Anyone?
If your "car" is only producing 286 then i would head over to the dealer with your dyno sheets and demand your missing 29 HP, tell 'em that Bubba says.................

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LS4_454
Posts: 726
Re: hello all new   Posted Wed May 28, 03   8:38 AM    [re: dtmcoupe] 

Read it and learn DA, here is a link that describes just what I have been talking about.
http://www.corridor-o.com/html/kids/html/horses.html

What a punk, you related to Neon?

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BlownGTP

Posts: 1303
Re: hello all new   Posted Wed May 28, 03   9:10 AM    [re: dtmcoupe] 

why would they rate hp off the flywheel? What matters is what your putting on the ground!! It makes perfect sense to me.


ILL BE WAITING AT THE NEXT LIGHT!

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quik67firebird

Posts: 95
Re: hello all new   Posted Wed May 28, 03   9:32 AM    [re: BlownGTP] 

Here's what the car makers are doing in case anyone wanted to know.

SAE Net Horspower
In 1972, American manufacturers phased in SAE net horsepower. This is the standard on which current American ratings are based. This rating is measured at the flywheel, on an engine dyno, but the engine is tested with all accessories installed, including a full exhaust system, all pumps, the alternator, the starter, and emissions controls. Both SAE net and SAE gross horsepower test procedures are documented in Society of Automotive Engineers standard J1349. Because SAE net is so common, this is the standard we will use to compare all others.

SAE Gross Horsepower
This is the old process that American manufacturers used as a guide for rating their cars. It was in place until 1971. SAE gross also measures horsepower at the flywheel, but with no accessories to bog it down. This is the bare engine with nothing but the absolute essentials attached to it; little more than a carb, fuel pump, oil pump, and water pump. Because the test equipment on the engine is not the same as in SAE net, it is impossible to provide a mathematical calculation between SAE net and SAE gross. As a general rule, however, SAE net tends to be approximately 80% of the value of SAE gross. SAE J245 and J1995 define this measurement.

Driven Wheel or Brake Horsepower
This is a measurement of horsepower taken at the driven wheels on a dynamometer, reflecting how much power is available after an engine's accessories, exhaust system, emission control system and driveline losses have taken affect (very useful to know since it's a realistic measure of horsepower in the real world).

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